this week on the futurists they're back scoble and romley I got to say it's
magical once you got used to doing things this way this is what's going to happen to all of us we're going to stare
at screens and we're going to wish that we can just do the things that we were doing in this visual OS world that
Apple's [Music]
created welcome back to the futurist this is our anniversary show it's a very special
show and um we I'm joining joined by my co-hosts the uh wonderful and beautiful
Katie King Miss metaverse I'm GL be backed to um and Bri and of course Brian
siss joining us in the hosting chair Brian thanks for thanks for joining in yeah you know you could always add the
adjective beautiful as well okay
hang on yes there you go yes all right but um what we're really
here to hear of is is two guests um who have been on our Collective shows now
over the space of seven or eight years depending on how you sort of measure it
and uh the best shows in the past on breaking banks in particular um you know
that the podcast that's now 10 years old um have been often with these two
gentlemen and they just riff off each other um tremendously so that's why we wanted to have them on together and that
is the uh erasable Robert scobble and the immutable Brian romley welcome to
the show jent wonderful to be here that's awesome to be here and it's awesome to talk to Brian again it's been
a while it's been too long been a we have a lot to talk about all right so here's here's a bit of a
test for you guys um you know see how good your memory is um do you remember the first
time you appeared on the podcast no I've been on a podcast it's a
blur so Robert you you first appeared August 24th 2015 on breaking Banks and
Brian you first appeared March 18 2016 wow Robert your first show was on
arcial intelligence particularly Siri and uh Brian your first show was on
voice um voice interface voice AI wow very so
um which they didn't show the new Siri uh this week they kept that muted and
out of public view well you know it like it's obviously gonna be an important part of um this the strategy for Vision
Pro as well um which we want to get into um of course uh that's the big
announcement that's happened this week um and uh you know there's been a lot of
conversation about it um but um big
announcement was how many llms does Brian have running in his garage exactly
now I have to keep that dark I have to keep that dark but um I was walking around with
with a Unity employee he's like oh we need a llm for every voxel around you
keep mind you're gonna soon have billions of voxel volumetric pixels around you in this headset for it man
well you could just DNA right but um anyway we're we we're going to get sidetracked very quickly
here easily I do think that um you know like it feels like particularly for you
Robert but also you know we've had many conversations about the smart glasses stuff over the years on the show um but
Robert it's like you've been w waiting eight years for this moment right when did um when did you first
start publishing on the special um stuff that was with um I I interviewed mattio
CTO in in their headquarters in Germany and they showed me monsters on the sides of skyscrapers that's an augmented
reality company that Apple bought that sort of the the CTO uh really set up this strategy uh
with their with the Apple team and so yeah that that was uh 2009 I yeah well
well that's a it's been a while while ago it's been a while you know people have been dreaming about augmented
reality for a long time and finally Apple gets into the market with a pretty nice
product I mean um when we look at sort of the evolution of this Tech in
particular Apple appears like they they had to invent a number of Technologies
to get um where they got to with this unit in fact I was saying you know in a chat with someone on Facebook that
there's probably only two companies in the world that could have done this and I think it's Huawei and and apple I mean
I'd debate that with you guys this you know I don't think Oculus could do this for example because it's it's really
pushing the boundary on hardw Brian what do you they don't have the ecosystem in and I'll talk for an hour
just about Ultra wideband radios that are in all that you know you know and
it's it's the ecosystem like Robert said but it's also uh the depth of their ability to
engineer to a Craftsman level I mean there there's so much that was uh under
the under cover that went into this and why it took so long uh some of it was
just really kind of getting caught up with getting the resolution to the the
level that it's acceptable to be sort of passing through in a mixed reality
setting that was a really tough thing for Apple uh Robert and I used to always talk about Battery Technology heating
the heating problem uh having that much uh display that close to your eyes and
what's the heat profile going to be like and apple did an incredible job uh they
didn't carry the battery in the device that was a big problem with engine in
for quite a number of years they were debating the perfect device does not
have an external cord right I mean that's the dream and there was a tremendous amount of debate on whether
or not Apple will run with a device that has a tethered power supply and they
made the right choice because Battery Technology is much slower than uh Mo's
law yeah and um yeah I mean I imagine they probably could have put it in the
headband or something something you know a shape battery but even then you know you're going to compromise on comfort
and and weight and so forth right the heating of the battery also during charging and discharging uh and uh Apple
was profoundly interested in weight and weight balance this was a really big
thing because all prior sets that had any reasonable amount of electronics you
literally had a forward tilt to your head after a while because it it's quite quite heavy some of these devices well
um on that note um you know Brian you have actually tried the Vision Pro so
tell us how it wore you know how did it feel on your head you know what what were the uh you know get into that
experience how long did you have uh with with the units to play with a very fast
45 minutes um but most of it was unfortunately talking about it and not
really getting to use it so it it it flew by very very rapidly and
Brian Brian real quick before you jump into that how many of those minutes were
personalizing it for your experience because I understand that it every headset has to be customized for the
user that's very uh very uh uh accurate so that was really the the Crux of the
issue well first was the wow moment right I said just let me look at it and and try to get a feel for the build
quality and uh some of the parts that went into it the Machining and uh then
it was the fitting you know there's a lot of adjustments that you can make I didn't care to go to the fine-tuning
adjustments because I just really wanted to jump in any of us would have been it's like come on let's let's just try
it out and um so once you're once you're in the device and it's reasonably adjusted
which is what mine was it is quite phenomenal it the the the very entry
point into it you're kind of just getting your your way about you especially the the dimensionality of the
user interface the user interface is three-dimensional in a way that I can't
really quite explain I don't think flat pictures or video kind of demonstrates
it because the movement of your head allows you to kind of see around and
above the uh user interface so let's imagine a typical icon say the uh Safari
icon it pops out almost what feels like 3 to seven inches according to how your
head is uh positioned from the the the backing of the icon and these little
things like that are not only interesting but they allow you to be
able to focus on what you're trying to actuate and that was the really big
first adjustment is that your eyes are really controlling the interface in a
way that you you it's it's I got to say it's magical you would actually once you got
used to doing things this way this is what's going to happen to all of us we're going to stare at screens and
we're going to wish that we can just do the things that we were doing in in this sort of um visual visual OS world that
Apple's created and that that's that alone is going to be addictive the other thing that I
noticed rather rapidly is that you attune to the environment that Apple
presents to you I would say with me it it took about 10 minutes to fully attune
to it there is some adjustments to get used to between when you're going into
what I would call real OS your life and then visual OS inside the system and and
the interplay between the two um I already imagined thousands of ideas
in my mind of how not just games but different apps would be adjusted uh to
this type of environment I mean mapping for example and getting around town and touring
just it's phenomenal that's one thing that we didn't actually see is we didn't
see the work that they've done on the OS for out in the wild you know this is for now it was shown as Limited to sort of a
household environment or you can imagine it a working environment in sort of a limited space rather than walk you're
not going to walk around with these things on out in the public you might sit in a plane or on a train they don't
want it that way yet that's that's the big thing Rob Robert and I are and you guys we're gonna go walking around with
this stuff right and we're nerds yeah right and
um I alluded to before the show uh how Robert's probably going to get a picture going but uh you know the bottom line
the bottom line is once you start realizing the power of this system
you're not going to restrict people from using it in the wild no matter what the embarrassment or uncool or nerd uh
whatever level that it uh it performs under now is it dangerous yeah uh I I
think there's probably a lot of things you're going to need to do to make these things uh uh less dangerous but just
like Tesla or anything else you're going to have sort of navigation built around you it's already in the system I mean
the mapping technology and Robert can speak to this also because he's he's right on this technology the mapping
technology is absolutely phenomenal and I don't think most people realize that
when you put this device on and and what I mean by most people most people writing about it that have tested it
when you put these things on they're mapping the room that you're in in a very very rapid fashion and it stores
that M like 20 millisecond kind of Rapid there's no lag right well there's no lag
but once the map is in place it's it's phenomenal what it can do to that
environment and and how it works within that environment and when we say map we're not talking about a blue line on a
on a on the floor we're talking about a 3D environment of your reality
absolutely you can actually like record memories right well tell me about this digital twin of the real world because
that's that's the real big differentiator from uh Zuckerberg's devices you know if you play with an
Oculus Quest Pro they do mix reality in that headset and it's it's pretty good
but it the reality is blurry watery has SCS in it um doesn't have Rich color
doesn't have a lot of detail to it and is not segmented so you can't you know
interact with it tell me about the real it that you see when when when you just fire this thing up and you're looking
around what is what ises the room around you look like oh man Robert it's disconcerting what happens is it's
disbelief and obviously if you really really try to look you can you can
detect that you're you're in the the bubble right uh as I would put it but
it's disconcerting because it is so close it it's making you second can guess and after after that initial
uncanny valley sort of feel you know it's very slight you kind of get used to
it and then all of a sudden it's you accept it as what you're seeing and then
once you start getting the hovering of the US user interface and particularly after you watch like a short video I
think the the really remarkable thing it's not so much web browsing which I really love the web browser I I just I I
I for some reason it really struck me as a lot of fun um but once you see a video
for a couple of minutes and then you kind of come back to you know the the digital
twin your world looks you know three times better I don't know why that is it
just helps you adapt uh more rapidly and at that point maybe you did a few more scans while you were watching a video
too and been a few holes here and there I could imagine it I I could imagine it did because at some point you feel like
the environment is richer and I I really wish I had a chance to visit another
room uh maybe uh I wanted to see what it looked like in the outside world I mean
I really was itching just to stand outside with it and and see Sky trees and things like that how how does it
render what does it what does it do uh but the thing that I find really
fascinating is once you get used to the interface you
probably accept that as your reality um for at least right at least until
something upsets it you know there are different things that are sort of cumbersome sometimes the way um things
move but we're past the uncanny valley right we're we're actually actually into the point where it's convincing I I
would say in in my limited interaction with it I would not be sitting there
scratching my head like uh we have with oculus and other systems that have never
really been released I've tried uh that they try too hard to stitch together something that really doesn't work like
Rob and I used to always talk about is the sensor technology in this device is where we're getting most of the the
benefit and apple just went over the top in Sensors how many cameras are on this
device I think it's nine cameras um and how many microphones six it could be there 12
cameras ceras cameras looking at your eyes looking inside your looking at the talk
about some of the sensors that they've got in this thing you know mainly through the Acquisitions that you've you've seen over the years oh yeah I
mean so we're obviously all the sensors that we find in an iOS device is there
uh but we're also like Robert just alluded to the IR um scanning uh system
system that is tracking your eyes primarily your iris uh is really in
interesting in Cutting Edge technology uh it's it's your gaze and your attention and the way your iris will
expand or contract uh as you're looking at something this is this is interesting
technology and anybody listening should be rightly so creeped out but let me put
a caveat on this your your reality is that your eyes give
away your attention before you even know it uh there's something called the user Illusion by Tor nor standers it's a book
from the 90s I recommend anybody reading it uh I read it once a year minimally
and there is a half-second delay between your conscious mind knowing what you're
actually doing meaning your subconscious mind is controlling your conscious mind
and your conscious mind is convinced that it had Authority and agency to make the choice we know that your eye gaze is
already making some determination on what you want to do before you mentally
actually know you're doing it and now we have a technology that's reading your eye gaze and your
attention before you know it and this is really important because if there's a loud sound over to the right of you
right your mind gets your attention changes from let's say straight in front
of you to to the right your eyes are already already moving before you even
figure out there was a new a noise and the computer can see that your eyes are
about to to move over to the right and predict where they're going to land and
unpack the neural Radiance field that's around you in that area uh this is
called fiated rendering where it's unpacking the data where you're actually going to
right because the the screen that you're viewing let's call it a 12K wraparound screen is not 12K end to end it's only
12K where you're looking and it fakes you into thinking the screen is a fullon
12K screen end to end right and that way the computer can keep up with you and
drive this very high resolution screen um without you know burning up your head
yeah and what's vital well let me just finish the one point on this what's vital to understand is Apple
at this point is moving that data into a sort of secure Enclave secure Enclave
yeah yeah so the reason this is important is advertisers are not going to get your gaze data right and start
marketing and this is vital because you know I trust apple with this uh if they
you know go into the box of mistrust then you know all bets are off but that
dat we call Pure R2 we estimate you can fill 80% of the available real estate before inducing
seizures you remember that out of so quick question though what is the
actual experience like using yes there's the eye control but it's also gesture
control as well right yeah tell us about the control yeah so you you don't believe it at first right
because um how can I put it uh the fine movement of your
fingers is uh is read so well that you don't really quite believe it's that
easy um we're so used and and it's tracking you your fingers everywhere I
mean when when you using this hollow lens the Finger track tracking only works right in front of you because the
sensors only have a a box in front of you and if you go outside of the box you
can't control it this is one reason Apple put so many cameras on the device so that they could always be seeing your
fingers no matter where you where your fingers are in 3D space and what's phenomenal that the tracking is so
accurate right you think about the billions of things it's really tracking
and somehow it finds the fine you know you rubbing your uh thumb and First
Finger together as as uh the little pincher yeah andzy yeah and and the fact
that it picks it up you so here's here's the thing that I think is going to take a while for people to adjust most of us
who grew up on the original click pads on uh on laptops uh you can tell older
people they tend to pound harder on the original click pads and and buttons and
when it became virtual or essentially a form of glass you still can't believe
that you don't have to hit so hard in a really light touch and a younger person barely touches it and they they're kind
of used to it well that's the same thing that's going to happen with this interface is that you're going to make a
lot more overt ridiculous sort of hand gestures and then you realize after a
while you can be so nuanced and almost like nobody can see it you can be subtle yeah yeah like I don't know what it's
called I'll call it the shove forward and backward routine that's the official Apple
designation um that doesn't require you can do it in in a way that almost nobody
can even notice that you're doing it and uh uh there there are a lot of other
gestures that I don't think Apple has talked about and I don't know if they are quite part of the system but there's
a lot of different Nuance uh gestures that I think come out in Brian Brian can
I just U I know we have a few minutes before the break but can you describe
the elegance and the Simplicity of a couple of movements like because they reminded me of the gestures that were
introduced with the iPad C effect so yeah you you talked about the push and the pull but can you describe how that
interacts with the interface so if you have a screen uh that lets it's hard to tell distance if you have a screen
that's say three feet away from you and you're you know you're wanting to just
examine it a little more closely you sort of just kind of pull on it and and
it highlights and it just comes towards you um and you're not so much doing a
pull as you're just kind of gesturing towards it to come you're
beckoning the screen towards you kind of and you know I didn't really have training on the UI uh on purpose no yeah
I mean I was told nothing just try it uh I was fish into new water and I I I
picked it up pretty quickly I mean I I got a little bit of guidance I'm like how do I do that you know and it's like
how would you want to do it you know those was those kind of I was like a roer and uh psychologist sitting next to
me helping me with the interface kind of but what happened was um you start this
intuiting how would you do that what would you do in the real world and a lot of those things just wind up translating
but the things that are different is that you don't have to Nuance uh you don't have to overtly do it you can
nuance and and I think that's that's the magic Apple brings to this well this is
you know this is the first uh headset or head mounted display head mounted
computer whatever you want to call it smart glasses that that doesn't need a separate control that you can control
with gesture movement I mean that's a that's a big deal in itself although you can hook up a game pad and stuff like
that to play games right or keyboard or keboard possibly even use your phone for
a controller because this has a lot of sensor well what's interesting is you can actually look at your computer and
the computer screen will pop in front of you and and it'll become a WID screen
and you can use your computer keyboard on your laptop instantly so there's no connecting it's just like there but
here's what my thing is about game controllers you're G to give them up you are absolutely once you're in this
environment you're not going to want really to it's going to be like oldfashioned it's like you know winding
up your car to start it up yeah you know so I think game controllers are on the
way out at some point well look at the The Meta Quest right it's uh our
daughter broke one of the remotes on it and you can't even find replacement remotes you it doesn't matter if it's
just one or both of them you know they're hard to find they break easily so you know I mean especially when she
throws them across the room especially when they get thrown across the room exactly Dar boom against the wall you
know the thing about it is Apple had such debates I would talk to Engineers about putting rings and bracelets and
all these different tracking systems and thankfully those things got voted down
there were so many patents and I would share them with Robert I put them up on Twitter and stuff and I'm like a lot of
it was like check out this patent and in the back of my mind I'm like God don't
let Apple do the Ring Thing don't let him do these little controllers the ridic it's so on yeah see the ring uh
Robert's showing us R the new surveillance device right yeah uh and
and that's see that's the Press precipice were Apple crosses but that's the this is I mean this is what a lot of
people miss about this it's not just about spal Computing in terms of the interface I mean if you look at the last
60 years of computing yeah we've seen two overall Trends one is that computers
get more powerful and cheaper more law but the second is that the ability to
control those computers also gets dramatically simpler over time so we started having to use Punch Cards right
and then was green screens then it was 16 colors you know then you know and and
uh then we got to multi-touch but you know the best computer you can have is one that is just with you all the time
that is naturally controlled by your body and your senses right um so um you
know and and the only way we can improve on that essentially is brain control interfaces you know and we'll get there
eventually but this this has always been the path we've been on to get sort of computing that is just you lious around
us and reacts to us in sort of natural ways I'm convinced they have a prototype
for every year until we get to bring computer interfaces let's call that 15 years from now I bet they have a plan
for every year what they're going to introduce certainly the first five years
leading into glasses right because this product really is is almost a prototype
for the glasses it's to get us used to augmented reality it's get us uh used to
building for augmented reality so that there's a lot of things to do when the glasses come cu the glasses are the real
mainstream event that's when everybody in your world is GNA start using right
so when you're talking about glasses you're talking about augmented spectacles essentially yeah lightweight
right so it's not going to be like today you know the Vision Pro actually has screen so you can't the when you're
seeing through it you're getting getting the camera's image projected onto these screens but we're talking about glasses
where the the the um data is projected into your field of view using lasers or some other mechanisms like that right
yes yeah think about this first product you're it's not going to be good at a
job that's dangerous like if you work at uh on the Tesla Factory uh with next
next to the stamping machine and there's a six ton stamping machine next to your hands no you don't want you're not going
to risk a power out from your screens you don't want to see your hand VR
you're not going to wear this while moving fast running mountain biking right uh skiing no no this is a device
mostly for sitting on your couch and watching a movie with a little bit of lightweight walking around going to the
bathroom going to the kitchen while wearing this device but not a whole lot of moving around and not a whole lot of
moving around quickly right all right well that's a good point for us to have a quick break and after
the Break um Robert let's get into you know how it's been um um you know picked
up by um um the tech press and so forth and what the overal impression has been on this and um nobody said the screen
suck said oh my God those things you got a big beautiful screen in front of you
right everybody's like wow all right well let's get into that after the break you're listening to the futurist we'll
be right back with Brian uh romley and Robert scobble after this
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fintech podcast and radio [Music] show welcome back to the futurist we are
talking about Apple's new Vision Pro mixed reality headset we have with us Robert scoel and Brian romley and
to bring us right back I'm going to just throw out a quick question I know we want to talk about the press and the
media's reaction but Brian you had the unique opportunity to wear this thing for 45 minutes and I would love to just
quickly have you describe for us that Crown experience because I I didn't know
I was ready for that that feature and its Brilliance and then last but not least please put that chef's kiss on it
about the Hologram of what people see who look at you while wearing this wow
great questions Brian um the um the digital Crown I guess very similar to
the watch it's something that I predicted geez uh probably four years
ago when I started digging into Apple patents because it started coming up everywhere and um I remember getting in
debates a lot of you know Apple um Apple pundits you know they would go after
Robert and I all about this stuff that we're wrong we don't know what we're talking about it's not going to be this
and that that Crown I really was convinced was going to show up somewhere
I was hoping it wasn't on a device like you had a hold to control this it just
felt wrong and um when you turn it it it it's actually more well jeweled more
well feeling wise uh to touch than you would have on on the watch or anything
like that it it you have um uh I guess haptic feedback while you're turning it
at least I did um uh it had a number of unique use cases I did not even have the
chance to explore all of it but you could do basically anything with it you can you know sort of do a zoom if you
will on some apps but I think that was a well-designed apple feature and um it's
also an avert notice to people you know around you that you're kind of doing
things uh I I think there's a lot of what I would call social contract issues
that we're always going to have to deal with with new technology it's like where where is somebody going to be using this
how are they going to be using it how do you know they're using it and I can't express enough how important what Apple
did with just the visual of eyes and that Segways to what you were saying about the virtual version of you but
important that you are able to create eye contact real simul it doesn't matter
it it it's so vital um if we don't have this eye contact we are running
into such a disconnect in a social setting and it also lead to injuries by
the way and this is Apple's Advantage they can come in late and learn from all
the mistakes that have been made by you know Microsoft with hland and Oculus
with the quest and and all that one of them was my dad got hurt while uh
my kid was playing VR because my my son was inside the environment you know
swinging his arms and my dad didn't realize that he was stepping into the play Space right he didn't understand
what the person who was wearing the VR headset was doing and these kinds of
eyes you would know that you know the the eyes are swinging over to the left
real fast that means somebody's about to you know hit a baseball or something like that in a virtual environment and
so it's much safer that way plus uh if you're wearing the device uh Brian tell
me what happens if somebody walks into your play Space let's say you're completely immersed in something that
like a VR uh e experience and somebody's walking into your play Space it uncloaks
them a little bit as they walk toward you they become clear that you know
there's somebody in the real world coming toward you and so it sort of uh stops the environment and and shows you
that person which is real key that's a great question uh Robert so basically here's I didn't get to do very much
gaming I was just really all about trying to dive into the UI but I can
tell you that when when you're in a where something is being occulted by you
know you have a screen and if somebody might walk past it the the system is so
responsive and so reactive that it it's detecting it on your far peripheral
before your eyes would see it so this is an important thing about the visual window that this device has is
past what your normal visual window on the peripheral of your vision is all around you so you have you don't feel
like you're reaching a a screen limitation right you wherever you can look you will you will
be able to see you actually tilt your head because you can't believe that it it doesn't find the end you know it it's
sort of an Infinity uh at least in my testing I I I almost believe it has to
but the simulation of that screen like Robert said it just keeps building that screen based upon where is your eye
where's your eye tracking and it's building that part of what your eye is looking at and interesting and so
because the cameras can go past where your eyes are seeing it's you know that
it sees what you don't see and so it's looking over looking behind your head I
do have a question Robert um you know you you tweeted out on the day that it was everything you hoped for and more
yeah right and you know you've been watching this for years you both have you know we all have right we've been
watching this development of this for years but let me ask you this question um is is there anything that
they didn't have or they didn't execute on that you were surprised about or something you would have liked to have
seen oh they didn't show a lot of things right there's a second keynote still to
go when when this is getting close to being in stores and they're going to show off a
lot more uh of the stuff for instance this is a very powerful camera technology and they barely showed that
they they showed a ve a very muted capture of a of a father with a child
they didn't show off a lot of you know really amazing camera technology that would uh track the child or do anything
like that that's coming in the future sometime but the future you know because
the technology here is an array camera I mean there's several cameras capturing your your surroundings and can do it in
a way that can build a neural Radiance field a 3D scene it's really going to be
amazing for photographers to play with and this leads into what the purpose of
this thing is which is an experienced delivery vehicle right if I'm trying to
deliver a concert to people's homes right um do we want that on a 2d piece
of glass you know a TV with a 2d sound system no we want it to be like you're
in the front row well can we put somebody in the front row wearing one of these reality Pros capture it or stream
it to everybody else who's watching at home so you could watch a NBA um you
know basketball match live from the the uh free throw line or something you know
actually they're doing a big thing with h Disney and ESPN so uh with the Vision
Pro so that you'll be able to do just that they just made a deal to get Messi into the Miami soccer team right going
to do a bunch of deals like this one of the advantages there's a lot of magic of
VR of immersive technology like this right uh one of them is you can embody
yourself in somebody else's headset so I can go into Brian's kitchen and watch
him make dinner right from his perspective I'm actually inside of his
head someday if we get a humanoid robot we're actually going to be able to use a
device like this to embody ourselves in a robot and control a robot remotely we
might even make dinner while we're sitting on the beach you know something like that right you know and and Robert
brings up a good point and from the very basic and that that advanced Outlook is
is phenomenal we're definitely going there but from the basic loow hanging fruit on the tree 3D photography from
these devices are absolutely a GameChanger Apple just touched upon it
but I believe that we're seeing the rise of a new genre of uh dimensional
photography that uh is going to be taken by these things and and by the way uh in
sports just to let you know somebody can wear a headset that essentially has all the camera sensors right record that
without having the screens yeah exactly yeah and you can have a whole team that's a a good jumping from one player
to another player to a car driver to uh somebody hitting the ball to the catcher
can you did you guys ever say that remember that movie must have been in the 80s brainstorm or something where
they used to be a to record memories Brian do you remember Natalie Wood yeah
yeah amazing um that's essentially where we're at it is we're right there a great
movie yeah the instant 360 camera company came to my house the founders of
that company came to my house and talked about how AI is inside the camera uh
using computer vision to see features in the world around you and then the camera readjusts the ball
of pixels in real time so if you're shaking the camera The Horizon is always locked on solid right and this kind of
this device has that kind of capability and way more because they have way more
uh computer vision to to use on this device than the insta 360 camera the
other thing the other thing is that with the unity partnership um you know we've seen unity and Nvidia um you know
demonstrate using chat chbt to have um AIS in game that will have a um creative
conversation with you within certain bounds so now you're going to have generative AI in a virtual world with
generative characters you know like it just in in a perfect 3D space it sort of
blows my mind this stuff they didn't show that either they didn't show viral beings they didn't they didn't show you
doing virtual meetings with people you know like the uh like the smart glasses in um what is it the uh with uh yeah
anyway if you if we all got hired by Apple and it's our first week at Apple
as Executives they do a whole bunch of onboarding training one of which is a a
class on the apple way and the first thing they teach you is understand the customer Journey understand where
customers are when you're trying to take them through a paradigm shift because that's what Apple's doing doing right
now they're taking us step by step through a paradigm shift into 3D Computing so I I I want to I want to
dive a little bit into that Robert so um you know one of the things that um yeah and Brian um please feel free to jump in
based on your experience with the the demo unit but what one of the things that is fairly clear is that apps in
this space won't work like apps on your phone and the ability to have um you
know these these applets or Widgets or whatever you want to call them these small chunks of contextual uh
functionality and interface pop up in the real world we haven't even really
seen the start of that either right um but there is a new paradigm in in sort of this contextual software coming Brian
did you started start to get the feeling that there's a framework for for that or is it still sort of like iPad apps
adapted for this thing at the moment I believe there's a framework and I think that framework is open to imagination I
think the basic developer spent a lot of time looking at the developer UI uh uis
and uh and developer um ways to build around what apple is creating and I
think like Robert said a lot of this has not even been shown this is this is like
this is beyond just having training wheels this is just like they didn't want to overdo and over uh Expose and
overload your uh ability to comprehend what's going on it's really a three-year
process of baby steps and meanwhile Moors law we're going to see that double
chip that that is out there is now going to be a a six chips in one that's the
next step once we get to that level of compute power you're going to have NPCs that talk to you in a generative type of
way uh you're going to have uh you can create so imagine if you
create one or two personal assistants that are embodied into three-dimensional space that is basically chat GPT Auto G
GPT going out and doing things for you in that world I mean this is the thing
is we're gonna have agency built into this as well right yeah and the diary is a good example and a lot of people just
chuckled off on that context is so valuable and apple needs to create a
social contract with you to have your context embodied in a secured
environment um what I call the intelligence amplifier and your wisdom keeper is based on having as much
context uh about you as possible but in a way that it's not in the cloud you
can't give away that much data and float it in the cloud it must be hyperlocal apple is starting that with this sort of
journaling uh system they must have storage on the on the Vision Pro unit do
did they talk about the storage capacity uh nobody's really talking cloud based
well there is there is some of that but nobody's really talking about that type of just like they don't really talk
about how memory is being used in iOS devices especially first couple of years um but the idea of a journal and the
idea that AI is going to start piecing this together for you all your pictures all your video all your Interac
and then to be able to have a conversation with it and say you know what was I doing that day and you see
this flashback or when when was that when when was it that um my daughter did this
and describing the situation and it'll find the memory visually for your that this is sort of wild man that is the
movie that we talked about get this your daughter pops up at four years old and
says hi Daddy and right there she's 25 right now and there she is four years old hi Daddy I made this picture for you
and it's a three-dimensional realistic image of her and and and like I said
there's a lot that we can unpack here there's another side to this I don't want to bring anybody down but there's a
lot of negativity that we need to all deal with about what this all means to us psychologically emotionally and
societal wise uh having memories like that so profound is well memories I mean we'
we've shown this you know there's so much proof of about this but memories just generally aren't very accurate you
know our memories are are flawed this is why when when you get six people at
witness a crime they see six completely different things you know it's they're idealized and are optimized whereas raw
reality memories uh have have a different flavor and effect but the thing about it is our AI can
actually construct our memories in the way that we most like to remember them
and uh so there's going to be that warping of reality also so that we do that already though you know we do yeah
this is different though when you're in a 360 video that you've captured on a 360 camera you can relive the entire
memory behind you in front of you to the right of you I mean I took a 360 camera
to Coachella and you can look down and see everybody in the whole building
dancing right and and you can even see a little drug deal going on
Robert cap shed for all time but but but you know and and what was that what was
like five years ago six years ago Robert seven or eight yeah yeah all right so
imagine where technology is now and that immerse of space everything at some
point I'm not saying this is you know Vision Pro right now but at some point every one of your memories can be re
reconstructed for you in a way that is relatively instantly available this will
help in your old age if you're getting absolutely dementia Irene and I
interviewed a lot of people doing mental health work uh research with VR right and Skip Rizo down at USC has been doing
a lot of this kind of work with uh uh people who are suffering PTSD the veterans and stuff like that and people
who have dementia and if you're getting dementia you're getting older and your mind is starting to fail um reminding
people of who they were gets their mind to reconnect a little bit and stay a
little bit more present than they would have otherwise and a little and a much
happier so you really do want to record as much as you can when you can with
this kind of device let me you can relive your your past in in this headset
in the future when you're getting brain problems like dementia it's give you one more iteration of that and Robert Is
Right on you will insert yourself into the memory because the AI will have a a
perspective that you had when it existed and have the embodiment of what you look like at that point in time and you can
actually see yourself in your memory as a movie this is not only profoundly
important for memory and and things like that it could potentially be used in a
positive way that I won't really dwell in this show at negative negativity but it can be used in a positive way for
mental health because a lot of times mental health breakdowns come from a a a
breakdown of your own perspective you don't see yourself in the right view a
lot of it is negative selft talk negative break you know we all know this but it's hard when you're in the midst
of that to be able to break out of it and AI can literally here here's here's
the thing do you guys remember Minority Report I know you do you remember the scene where Tom Cruz is watching a
memory of his son you know and he's repeating the lines that his son's saying and stuff like that and that was
said in 2054 and we looked at that as like so sci-fi and this is literally able to do
that right now can do it right now insane no was in The Vision Pro uh the
teaser trailer for it I mean there was a scene just like that where the man's watching his iCloud uh videos and photos
and yeah sitting on the couch doing the gesture control and everything I mean that that reminded me of that scene for
Minority Report I mean we're there and the thing is that's that's the like
Robert was saying before that's the training wheels one 1% version of where
it winds up going because if they jump to the real big version of this even
though they could do it it would be I think so hard for most people to digest
that it would almost be repulsed by it because it is a lot to take in at a very
small Pace all of us here have experience with moving on the way of a
tech technology but we we it's easy to forget what the average person is dealing with with the information
overload they don't they don't have the skill set yes necessarily yet to say how
does this fit into my life why do I need this and and and they unfortunately are
hearing the dystopian aspect of it mostly it'll take time I mean you know we hear it with all these new texts
right this oh yeah but this feels different this feels sort of fundamentally different as computers get
closer to your brain the resistance level goes up I studi resistance to
Paradigm shifts right and have for 40 years and the resistance to this field
of Technologies is extraordinarily High because it's so freaky and it's close to
you right it's very intimate and you're wearing it and there so there's a lot of
resistance just to that I don't want to put it on I don't want to wear glasses a lot of people tell me I don't want to
wear thing on my face that's not attractive to me um once they do it at
an Apple store they're going to change their mind we know this but that's the
resistance up ahead of this and and it's real interesting to study this resistance yeah Brian's studying the
resistance to AI right and we're going through a revolution in AI as well at
the same time time this device is getting shown to people right yeah lot
of negativity with the that's for sure and and at some at some point we're not
going to distinguish the differences between any of these Technologies because essentially we're at a vanishing
point where is everything is basically AI right I mean whatever that means the
images the the the text the audio the video everything will be coming out of
that particular Paradigm and that's that's changing and transforming Society
at such a rapid Pace that even the people that are riding the wave are like
looking around saying what's happening like I mean I'm dealing with a models that are coming out about every 12 or 15
minutes so every 12 or 15 minutes I get a ding and somebody has created another local AI model uh and sometimes it's a
derivative of the base of llama model sometimes it's something else but the and but it's always getting more
powerful Robert how quickly is this going to kick off a whole new suite of
spartial Computing startups I mean you know we like we but I'm I'm talking
about like when we look at the e-commerce boom or the app boom or the fintech boom you know you're talking
about a specific generation of startups that have have got funding around that like we're seeing with AI right now
instantly and there's already a bunch of them that have been created that will accelerate because of Apple's moves
right they're going to get more funding because the investors have been telling me they're not funding anything until
Apple comes and now that Apple's comes we know what Apple's direction is and
okay they're gonna bring glasses let's say in two to four years that's the main
event this is just to prepare the developers and prepare the users get people to go to the Apple Store put it
on for 10 minutes like Brian got his demo everybody's going to have the same demo to see oh a new experiential age is
here a new kind of TV is here right the lines around the block I'm predicting
this already it's a sellout all right a sellout I'm remember the old days camping out for the iPhone people
camping out to do a demo it'll be worse the lines around the block they're redesigning Apple stores by the way you
heard it here first on the futurists yeah right so in fact this is inside information they're going to redesign
Apple stores in a profoundly different way uh yes over half the store over half
the store is going everything in the store is gonna have a grid pattern on it so the cameras
can really know where the hell you are but the demos the demos are going to be
there what I call Demo pods they're going to be areas where Apple employees
are going to have uh people coming in just to demo these things it's going to be uh exhibitional kind of demonstration
so people in the store can see that people are trying you things on uh So
the plan is to take over half the store uh over half the employees will be working on that side of the store lines
are probably going to be forming for at least the next after it's available at
least three months you're going to have to take reservations they're going to want a little bit of the line out there
they're going to have the little uh red carpet thing going on um you know the whole the whole thing so we've not even
seen the tip of the iceberg and there are people going to get crazy about it but here's the
thing at some point when do we throw away our our other devices and Robert
and I used to talk about this when do we 2027 right so I say 2027 it's five years
for us though right okay so 2029 for everybody else so in in reality I really
think Robert's on the money we're probably going to abandon most of our devices ultimately our phone they'll be
a a thinner version a glasses version like Robert said that essentially going to be every your everything device uh
you won't really have right because you won't have a laptop because you can have the screen and keyboard and control
device in this you still will have your phone in your pocket though and that's real key uh you may not you may not the
first device you're going to need the phone oh of course yeah you know the first glasses by
2030 the phone doesn't need it anymore right the the computers are small enough
to put on the rim of the glasses but uh for a bit the having the phone is a and
we need some we need some improvement in battery tick maybe cabon n tubes it's battery but it's also reor it's also to
create this beautiful visuality in front of you you need a lot of gpus and you need to run them really hot and putting
those on on the edge of a glasses is really really difficult I mean Rick Zuckerberg is trying to do the same idea
he's spending tens of billions of dollars in the custom silicon because he doesn't have the phone he has to put
everything on the the glasses to make it work and he's putting all the gpus up on
the cloud which tells you a huge difference between the philosophy of these two companies Apple wants to put
the AI inferencing close to your eyes I.E on your head or certainly in your
house on a new kind of mesh Network that's why I keep bringing up Ultra wideband because that's really
infrastructure combination of ultra wideband and and Fire 5G you know super
low latency you know 5G 6G Tech you're not understanding what I'm saying where
the AI inferencing is being done is hugely important for privacy Mark Zuckerberg is going to do all that
aiting up in the cloud on an Nvidia Bank of computers up in the cloud Apple's not
Apple's going to do it on the head or in the house on this Ultra wideband Network and the the inferencing is not going to
go to the cloud this so you could have your home unit or your car unit that it syncs with but yeah this hugely
important because when I was playing VR in a quest you that that device has four cameras on it as well my wife walks into
the room naked where's the inferencing being done is it being done on the cloud
in other words does all that data go up to Mark Zuckerberg and the inferencing is done on the cloud that's a huge
privacy problem Apple doesn't believe that way they're keeping the ey sensor data in the headset they're not letting
it go even to the house right they're doing that for privacy and only Apple
can deliver a private experience like this and and and Robert makes such a
great point is is not only that but I mean everything that's going on around
you that you can't even possibly predict uh obviously that's the most avert thing
uh it needs to be local there's no other question about it there's no other company in a better position to make
this uh as as a dedicated path so literally like Robert has been saying
for a long time Apple's got a Runway that is miles wide and miles long and if
anybody does catch up they got a hell of a budget they're also so freaking
disciplined I mean I have an I'm talking to you on an M1 computer 21% of that
chip is neural it's not being used it's sitting cold right now on my computer
and it was sold to me two years ago in other words apple has a lot of U of AI
power that's in the house already that's connected
the in the show the in the developers conference they didn't use the term AI
they they used machine learning they us use Ai and and and and that's why is that Brian um that's a philosophical
Direction it's the same reason why we're not seeing them use large language models right uh and and and a GPT
interface what we saw was spelling correction and you know I'm I'm dismayed by some of Apple's choices uh a lot of
it was I think boneheaded uh even though they do make uh good decisions and they
are disciplined they also make some really bad decisions Siri was the worst decision they ever made by Not By
ignoring it and by not improving it by Leaps and Bounds but here's the problem is that gonna change I hope so the
problem is large language models produce outputs that are not necessarily apple
likee as much they have errors yes and not only errors hallucinations and
embarrassment even if you're using something like constitutional AI which is in theory saying better things apple
is still weary of wanting that out in a free world uh whereas the rest of us are
like hot roders in the garage saying hey let's just get the AI so they don't like using those terminologies Apple's always
been opposed to that they like to create their own terminologies machine learning is kind of gener ER we're going to see a
new terminology coming up from Apple in the next uh probably next couple of months probably before the end of the
year which will essentially be AI Without The Machine learning attribute
uh and Robert Is Right on the money the the neural unit inside of these chips
especially the one that is you know the the many that are inside uh Vision Pro
are mostly underutilized even in that device even in that device so there is a
massive Runway and if I was in the competitive position of uh against Apple
I would be rushing to be doing my own silicone as fast as possible and to try
to understand but again who's got the I mean there's there's very few companies in the world that have the budget to to
do this but let me let me just I'm conscious of the time guys I I want to wrap up let me just ask you I mean we
could just go on for hours obviously but um let me just yeah exactly part we have
to we have to for sure um let me just ask you this one question so we can wrap um Brian you go first and then Robert
you can close us out is um this is the developer version so let's say in a year
or so's time when they do release or maybe it's two years time they do release a consumer Edition how do you
think it'll be different my feeling is that a year from now we'll see the the high-end consumer
version that Apple really wanted to put out there this is not rushed the market but it's not the fully contained Apple
device that we we would ultimately want to see from the company and it's only because there's a convergence of so many
Technologies are taking off at once that they have to sort of piece it together it is magical how they were able to
catch all these Technologies with a with a neck and assemble them into a
profoundly important a decade or more of of meticulous planning and acqu a lot of
editing a lot a lot of stuff that was in there uh I mean we saw so many versions
from our insiders that were edited out now somebody might say Robert was wrong I was wrong about a couple of things no
those versions were up they were running people dedicated five years of their life boom it got cut out because it did
not make the final grade there's a lot of that going on and when we see the next iteration which essentially be a
year from now and I'm not saying it's a model uh change so much as how the
software interacts because we're seeing literally beta software and I'm not saying it's buggy I'm not saying it's uh
not adequate we don't know everything that this can do yet from a Ab absolutely so next we're gonna be
discovering things for years oh yeah I mean this is uh we're just beginning and developers I've
talked to but that's the point of this right that is the point of this product release is that it is the start of
something new yeah start of a new paradigm in Computing the developers I've talked to uh that have just
experienced some of the possibilities of building on this their creativity is
just beginning to be touched upon and apple is being blown away with some of the ideas that have already come up that
were definitely not inside the company but definitely in the minds of creative people so we are just beginning and I
can't predict what some of these guys are going to produce and I'm sure nobody can but uh well I think it's interesting
that they you know this is the first time they've relied on people like Disney and unity for part parts of their
ecosystem in in in this way you know you had New York Times and others that you
know released apps on the App Store to to celebrate but not Partners in
developing you know the platform and ecosystem I think that's that's different Robert
what what do you think the fact that they had no pictures no pictures leaked of the
device or of the user interface with all of these Partners is real impressive
that shows there's only one company that has an NDA like apple and we didn't we
didn't know the name of it until like F Well I bet the name changed like in the last couple of
weeks it was different name some of the do some of the docs have a different
name for the product and they didn't remove all the names for the doc in the docks that are up on the developer
accounts you know so Robert just to finish finish off what what do you think the consumer version is going to be like
in terms of differences um lighter um less heat generation they're they're
there still is some problems with heat if you really light up this device and
try to do some advanced stuff many more consumer oriented experiences will be
shipped around that time now you said a year Brian you said a year from now is that a year from now like like next June
yeah next June next June device all right so hear hear me out this device comes let's say this device comes out
March 31st right or April 3 April sometime in April yeah they just said
early next year that's all I've said early April is pushing early next year
it's like that's not quite early anymore you know it's so if it's May it's too
late you can't call that early anymore so it has to be before April and
um or April and before and when they do um then they're you're predicting
they're going to have another device like in June so the first users are GNA
buy this device and then another device come out an iteration
iteration of the device uh you're I I'm predicting by let's call it summer of
next year uh we'll have two devices from Apple in the marketplace and I'm not I'm not saying
either one of them are going to be marely different from each other uh there are going to be some feature
capabilities that may be enhanced or reduced how that plays out
2,999 instead of there might be a little bit less resolution on the chips that they're putting in the consumer version
right actually I think it's the other way around oh you think they're gonna get GNA even step it up huh yeah yeah so
I I think what we'll see by mid uh mid year is a higher inv verion and this is
becomes the lower inversion and we'll start seeing price drops perhaps uh for
the entry level or the the version we see now by holiday next year and apple
let's let's look at it this way uh there's a lot of Apple premium that is
baked into this initial price yeah uh when you look at the at the breakdown of
Parts on this particular uh system it's not that expensive it is even even in
its wildest dreams we're still below $900 in uh in parts manuring cost yeah
if we if we factor in Apple's um if we amateurz Apple's cost
of building their own chipsets right because you have to kind of figure what does that really mean but from the
manufacturing standpoint of just building those chips and putting it together it's it's a thousand cost
device if not a little less I got to break one apart uh hopefully it's not me
that does it but somebody does it and we start really looking at what's inside but it is an incredibly exquisitely
engineered device that does blend does BL please don't do that all right well
listen uh we we really do have to wrap um but as always you guys didn't
disappoint it's fantastic to have have the uh the band back together uh Robert
uh scobel um what what are you working on that we should be watching I know you have a subscription service now on your
Twitter stream but what else uh how else can we connect with you I'm seeing that there's a whole bunch of people who are
using AI first for their businesses or their personal life uh and that group is going to grow over time oh yeah for a
lot of reasons and so I'm doing videos for for and with those people yeah and U
covering that world very closely I'm always watching Brian for what what's he
he's doing we need to have another we need to have another show where we just talk about AI because I've got some great stuff for you guys that uh I've
developed on that as well so and and Brian um I know you've got Multiplex
[Music] docomo blow your mind it is absolutely
worth it um for me you know follow me on Twitter I'm in my garage testing out AI
models as much as I can uh riding these waves uh I'm trying to keep up with it I have ai keeping up with AI at this point
and it's kind of fun um people uh that subscribe the singularity yeah it's very
close people subscribe uh become members to read Multiplex we have forums $99 for
the year it's extraordinary value yeah and and you I have old school 2003
forums and we have masterminds where people are just building super prompts that are doing phenomenal things we're
doing the hive mine approach to this and a lot of these folks are becoming prompt Engineers uh I I've I've uh most
recently uh somebody walked into a 390,000 a year job uh prompting Ai and they are
doing extraordinary they've saved the company multi-million dollar in the first five days of operation just by
using AI within the company go so this this is what happens when you follow
people like Robin and Brian so uh fantastic guys um this this show should
air next week we'll we'll let you know but um always an experience um a good
one thank you for coming back on and uh we definitely need to make this a regular feature because it's just
fascinating Katie abely thank you Miss metaverse for joining us my pleasure
honored to be here that's it for the futurist this week if you enjoyed the show which I'm sure you did make sure
you tweet us out you know share it on social media give us a five star rating wherever you download the show and uh
you know generally you know get the word out um we are now the largest show on the provoke Network um you know futurist
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globally now so some fantastic traction and that's why we continue to get great guests like Brian and Robert if you if
you have a guest suggestion for us let us know uh we just booked Kim Stanley Robinson Peter diamandes and and Robert
Zubin for season two so stay tuned for those guests it's going to be uh epic as
they say but we will see you guys again next week um in fact um I can say it as
we do every week that we will see you in the future in the
future well that's it for the futurists this week if you like the show we sure hope you did please subscribe and share
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thanks for joining and as always we'll see you in the [Music]
future